Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

General discussion for all things Rogue. If you have class questions or comments, this is the place.
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sveltekumquat
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Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby sveltekumquat » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:12 am

I just wrote a lot of words on this subject. So I'm gonna keep this first post brief.

If you've taken a look at Warcraft Logs (or other data sources) yourself, what sorts of things have you found that you'd like to talk about? Do you have any questions or thoughts on some of the factoids I highlighted in my bloggy? Fire away; I'm eager to dive into this stuff further and see where we swim.

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sveltekumquat
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby sveltekumquat » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:04 am

Oh, here's a thing I didn't include in the blog: average DPS numbers. Here's the range for each spec across all seven boss fights (lowest and highest). Remember, this is week #1; these numbers will grow considerably over time as rogues gear up, and may also change if additional tuning passes are done to the rogue specs or bosses.

Normal mode, 50th percentile:
Assassination: 15.6K to 19.7K 
Combat: 14.9K to 19.8K
Subtlety: 16.2K to 19.0K

Normal mode, 95th percentile:
Assassination: 20.1K to 23.9K
Combat: 20.0K to 26.8K
Subtlety: 21.4K to 24.9K

Heroic mode, 50th percentile:
Assassination: 16.9K to 22.0K
Combat: 16.3K to 22.4K
Subtlety: 18.1K to 21.3K

Heroic mode, 95th percentile:
Assassination: 21.6K to 26.2K
Combat: 20.7K to 28.4K
Subtlety: 22.9K to 25.5K

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Coryn
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby Coryn » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:51 am

Interesting read! Looking around on the armory Combat does seem to be the all around go-to spec for many of the highend raiders with Sub coming in at a close second. Personally I've been having fun switching between all 3 specs, Twin Orgron just screams Assassination while Kargath and Butcher provide excellent opportunities to unleash the Single Target Sub!

All in all, I'm pretty excited that all three specs are performing and are close, with different specs shining on different fights, although I will say that Assa could do with a slight Boost when there aren't two targets - oh and Highmaul gear stats are complete and utter humbug if youre not combat.. even daggers have Haste Versatility :<

Falcifer
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby Falcifer » Wed Dec 10, 2014 9:35 am

Daggers? I did a quick look today and only saw one dagger in Highmaul. Oh well...

There's been a lot of "discussion" on the forums about rogues being terrible right now. Mostly because people are looking at the Noxxic charts and seeing how OP some classes are on WCL.

They seem to ignore all the things you point out in your blog, which is pretty much the same conclusions that I came to when I went and checked for myself how rogues were really doing.

There's a lot of backlash from recent Blizz comments about rogues being fine and still getting used to the CP change, with lots of (vocal) players concerned that rogues aren't so good and we need some huge buffs so that we are a viable class - why take a pure melee DPS when you can take a hybrid who does more damage?

I agree that rogues aren't the problem. I haven't raided in WoD yet, but looking at the data, rogues are doing well. The problem is that there are a few OP classes right now. Similarly, fire and arcane mages are doing terribly, along with fury warriors. The fact that rogues don't need to be messed with isn't so bad.

Being "middle of the pack" is a good place to be, I think. And with how close each spec is, that's a great position to be in. The fact that there isn't a huge difference between the 10th percentile in normal and the 95th percentile in HC suggests that the "skill gap" is very narrow, too, which seem to be where Blizz want players/classes.

I noticed that at the higher percentiles, the OP classes pulled further away from the pack. I do like there being some reward for more skill, but it does seem contrary to what Blizz want now, so I imagine more changes coming for those classes/specs (ret paladin, unholy DK, druids, and ww monks are the main culprits) to stop the gap being quite so wide.

Having the choice of which spec to play is always a good thing. Hunters look like they're "forced" to go MM at the moment, and DKs "have to" go unholy...

I'll be checking back next week to compare how things are after the recent buffs and nerfs to other classes.

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sveltekumquat
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby sveltekumquat » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:55 pm

BenDover posted this question over on Red-Hatted Rogue; felt worth sharing his q and my response here as well, to help keep the convo consolidated.

“They don’t see any data that shows Rogues need changes at this time. They feel Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points, and think that Rogues are pretty well represented across their specs.”

This is what the Devs are saying about Rogues. Any thoughts on them thinking we’re having problems with adjusting to the CP change? Personally, I feel they are underestimating us quite a lot. I do agree, though, that our representation and numbers look pretty good at this point in the expansion.


Hazzikostas tried to clarify that particular comment in the WoW rogue forum this week: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/15538984562?page=2#21

The gist is that they realize they misspoke and regret it. I accept that; interviews aren’t easy, even when you’ve done many of them, and sometimes your brain gets tied in a knot. When it’s a live, unedited show, statements like that can be the result. I don’t think it’s worth anyone’s time to linger on it.

Every expansion brings changes that require relearning and adjustment. It may well be possible that they know something we don’t about the “optimal” way to play our class in various settings in the game. I kinda doubt it, but it’s possible. Thing is, we had a pretty decent amount to adjust to at the start of the last expansion as well — an entirely new talent system, redesigned poison and Shiv system, some rotational/priority changes and stat adjustments — and yet after a week of raiding in Mists we had a stronger showing on DPS charts than we do at the same point in this expansion.

That in itself doesn’t mean much — you can’t directly compare a raid tier from one expansion to the next, nor can you compare class changes across expansions — but it does make me doubt that “adapting to changes” has much to do with questionable DPS performance.

Calan
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby Calan » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:36 pm

What are you guys finding is the best spec for Mor'gok. I see some saying comb and some saying sub.

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sveltekumquat
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby sveltekumquat » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:08 pm

I have not personally experienced -- or even yet watched videos of -- that encounter so I can't speak to it from that perspective; hopefully others have and will. What I can note, though, is that according to the WCL data, combat came out well ahead of Mut and sub on that fight in week 1.

Fuvi
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby Fuvi » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:19 pm

Nice analysis! Did some digging after today's patch to see where the balance seem to land and when looking at the top 10% of the dps performers the preliminary results were rather shocking, even more so than the analysis you did.

Found out that almost **ALL** melee hybrids pull better Dps numbers than the Rogues! How are a rogue with less performance and with just one role suppose to compete with an superior product in *all* ways?

Darn I miss Ghostcrawler, say what you will - At least he and his team understood why a specialist should bring slightly more in their specialized role due to the lack of flexibility. The current team simply don't seem to be able to grasp that, still trying to over normalize everything and on top of that in an expansion where the hybrids gear-up curve got almost totally flattened out where just one gear set covering all their roles got introduced. *geez*

Normal i'm never this negative but the evident lack of insight from the Dev's responsible for the class balance is just shocking!

Regards Fuvi / Draenor EU

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Coryn
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Re: Rogue DPS in Highmaul: Talkin' Data

Postby Coryn » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:23 am

My personal experience so far in highmaul has been that rogues are pretty decent and even somewhat excel at a fight or two, so I must admit that I don't really see why people are complaining about rogue DPS. Generally I'm in the top 4-5 in my runs (currently only 7/7 HC though) and I even sometimes top the meters on fights like Twin Orgron where I bring the old Assa out of the closet. As for which spec to play Margok, Ive done it on HC as both Sub and Combat and both had very good results. It depends what your strat needs imo, combat burst AoE can be very handy in the transition and last phases but Sub single target burst is great for dealing with the fortified adds and phase 4 as Sub is a lot of fun with improved FoK and CT.


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